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A Few Thoughts From A Vile Gaming NubForums / General / VG site feedback
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February 3rd, 2012 9:39am #1AlteredsEgo Regular (4) |
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First off, I apologize if this it in the wrong section of the forums, but I did not really see a better place to put it and as StarCraft 2 related content led me to your side: I decided to post it here. That admission aside, basically I am creating this topic because I am new to your site, and, as I am somewhat creatively oriented, I had some constructive criticism regarding some of the aesthetic and operational choices made my the the Vile Gaming web, visual development, and marketing team. Let me state for the record that I am not making these comments to be a troll or an asshat (I mean seriously who wants to be an asshat?), but rather I was hoping for this to be a constructive exercise that might allow me to in some way contribute to Vile Gaming. So with that out of the way, here are the points that I wanted to critique: 1) The Logo: Your logo was actually what initially inspired this post. I rather liked the style and coloring of it, but I did not get what it had do to do with Vile Gaming. I mean I get that it is similar in shape to a V and Vile Gaming starts with a V, but beyond that I don't understand how it is associates with the name in any way. I also understand that the logo probably inspired the whole "Phoenix is Rising" tagline that I have seen a couple of places, but again that does not really make me think Vile. As I mentioned before I am somewhat creatively minded, so I decided to have a go at the logo myself, and here is the image that resulted from the work I have done so far: https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B_KuZXA .. ZWVhNGQ0NThmZmVh As I hope that you can tell from the image, I tried to take some inspiration from the existing logo, but in some way incorporate the team name into the logo itself. I also wanted to incorporate something that said what vile gaming was about, and hence I added the logos for the three races in StarCraft 2. I will say that I am not totally thrilled with my attempt at this time, and I want to keep working with it to see if I can come up with something better. (As of right now the logo above makes me think of a cross between a Kurt Vonnegut book cover, and the logo that ID used for Return to Castle Wolfenstein.) Also, ideally I would really like that logo to say Vile more than it does currently using its current somewhat Art Deco Styling. I had thought about possibly incorporating about a snake (as I think they are generally thought of as vile creatures, and it could be made to work with the logos current color scheme), with the I and the L in vile shown to look more like fangs about to strike. However, that might be more complicated than it needs to be. I would genuinely love to hear if anyone else has any other thoughts, or possibly some constructive criticism of their own based on what I have done so far. Let me state additionally that I don't expect you to change the logo based simply on my opinion or anything. I just saw what you had and it seemed like a kind of neat project to take on in my free time. Like I said before, I really like your current logo. My main issues with it are that it does not make me think Vile in any way, and if I were to see it on its own I would not readily associate with the entity which it represents. 2) Team Roster: Why isn't there a Team Roster on your site that gives information and Statistics about each member of Team Vile? I mean if you want people to be interested in and follow Team Vile shouldn't you allow people to get to know the team better? 3) Social Networking and Other Images On The side Of The Page: Wouldn't these be more functional and appropriately placed in the space above the title bar? 4) Forum Posts: Why aren't there any tools for formatting or including external content as part of the post window? Was this done purposefully to avoid spammed content, or is it just not offered as part of your chosen CMS? 5) Non Working Links: I was curious about the coaching link, clicked on it, and well it appears to be a dead section. On top of that I have some other issues with pages loading when just trying to view random content on this site. I understand, based on another post I read, that NKspartan is the only person working on site development currently, and that some updates are in the works. Do you guys need help or anything? I would be happy to offer my services to help fix some of these issues if you are down on man power. 6) Favicon: Why is the Icon the phoenix on Team Vile's page and everywhere else the VG? I think that is it for now. I came to this site because Psy mentions it at the start of most of his videos now (and who does not love Psy? I recently switched from Terran to Zerg simply because I watch his videos all the time and I found that I knew more about Zerg strategy than any of the other races), and I was just curious about what Vile Gaming was about. You seem to have a pretty good community going, and it always makes me happy to see such a seemingly cool group of people enjoying StarCraft 2 together. I additionally hope that my critiques are well received and that I am not flamed for sharing these thoughts. It is always hard to anticipate how outsiders are going to view a site and to appropriately adjust certain design elements to their needs. Since I am new to Vile Gaming I thought I would share my experiences and thoughts based on my initial browsing experience: in the hope that it will help you in making a better site for future visitors. (I would additionally like to apologize for how poorly written this post is. I am having an ADD kind of day, and really having issues focusing on what I am saying as I write this. I promise: normally I am much more well spoken than this.) |
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February 3rd, 2012 11:15am #2AlteredsEgo Regular (4) |
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After thinking about it for a while (and taking some more drugs designed to help me with my ADD issue), I also decided to share one of the earlier ideas I had for the Vile Logo: https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B_KuZXA .. ODk1ZmFhYTEzOTNh Again it kind went with a flight inspired type of idea, but obviously made more to look like an aviator pin/badge. I just did not like how the shield looked behind it; as it made it look like the outside portions of the V and E were not part of the logo itself. |
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February 3rd, 2012 5:48pm #3NKspartan Head Admin (39) - NKspartan.568 |
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Hi, AlteredsEgo! My name's Kris. I'm the CEO of Vile Gaming, LLC (VG), President of Team Vile, sole Web Designer, and sole Web Developer of the whole network -- by day I'm a full-time Web Developer for Trion Worlds. I think it's great that you've taken the time to type up this post and provide your view on several aspects. I really appreciate the thought and the fact that you just want to contribute. So let's continue..
The phoenix has been the logo of VG since it was launched in 2005. You're correct in that a part of the reason why the phoenix was chosen as the logo is because of the "rising", or rather "rebirth", persona of it. I would like to argue, however, that the a logo doesn't necessarily have to associate with a name. It should be the other way around. The name should associate with the logo. By that I mean, it is the name, the whole brand itself, that carries the logo and allows the audience to connect with it. Pepsi, for example, what does their logo have to do with their name (granted it's not a dictionary term)? It's because of their marketing and products that people are able to associate the two. Perhaps a more personal example for you and I, what does a horse have to do with TeamLiquid? Anyhow, I appreciate the design you came up with and it's definitely interesting. We may be able to incorporate ideas from it in working variations of the current logo in the future.
VG and Team Vile are one in the same yet separate. Team Vile is a subsidiary of VG. VG itself is the network. For more team-specific content, we have a team website up and running here: http://teamvile.net You can alternatively quickly access it at the top of VG on the navigation pane, or on the home page at the left-hand side (green callout).
Agreed; been meaning to find a better spot for them and make them fit right.
There are BBCodes available. As for GUI-based tool for using them, that's on the list of things to add back (they were removed initially due refactor the code that powered it).
Yea they're dead links and a bad practice to leave them up like that, or at least not have messaging on the unfinished pages. Fail on my part, too. The replay link (goes to Cache) will be up by end of this weekend though. The next big project after that is the coaching link (goes to SCU).
They're separate domains, as I mentioned above to answer #2.
Ah, good old PsY -- he's a good fellah. Thanks for stopping by and checking us out. As I'm sure you've noticed though, the community has died down substantially from our previous state of activity/flourishing a year ago and before. We're hoping to remedy that very soon though (it's about damn time and long overdue).
Again, I just want to reiterate that I greatly appreciate your taking the time to comment on things you've noticed and provide your opinions. It's very constructive and doesn't go unnoticed. :) |
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| "I'm not a businessman. I'm a business, man." |
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February 4th, 2012 9:41am #4AlteredsEgo Regular (4) |
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Okay all of that makes sense; although I would offer a few rebuttals and clarifications to some of your points. Of course Vile is your baby, and I appreciate that you know what you are doing. The items below are more semantic type points that I tend to enjoy debating with others. (I.E. I enjoy having these types of discussions, but please don't take this as me saying you are doing things wrong and that I know better than you when it comes to what is right for your companies and your brands.) 1) On My Logo: Yeah "interesting" is one way to describe it. Like I said before I was not happy with how it came out. I will probably keep working at it and see if I can come up with something with better. (I.E. I am not defensive of my work, and I recognize when it stinks.) I will say that I do like the VILE lettering itself, but I am having a great deal of difficulty building around it. (Which is usually an indicator that I either need to start over, or that I need to simplify the design and lose some of the additional content that I want to incorporate into it.) I in part tried to incorporate design themes from old Cadillac logos. As these were designed from the 30's to 50's: they probably represent probably the wrong type of style, and I should find some more relevant and contemporary sources for inspiration in future design attempts. (After all who connects old Cadillac and Art Deco styling themes with gaming? As far as your current logo goes: it reminds me a great deal of some of the artwork Linkin Park used for their Reanimation album: so perhaps I should go take a look at some of that if I am interesting in designing something with a similar stylistic theme.) 2) On Logos In General: I understand what you are saying about logos, and I agree that there does not always have to be a direct correlation between the logo's chosen design and the entity which it represents. That said, would you not agree that it is better when that is the case? Isn't it ideal when a logo can stand on its own and does not require additional text or explanation to express it's meaning? 3) On The Distinction Between Vile Gaming and Team Vile: I appreciate that you are trying to separate the 2 entities; as you are trying to make Team Vile seem like a more elite organization, and to help reinforce that difference you use different branding for both. However, as by your own admission, Team Vile is probably the stronger brand at this particular point in time, and Vile gaming is struggling right now due to a dearth of activity in the Vile Gaming community. Therefore, shouldn't you leverage the wealth of knowledge, experience, and notoriety of Team Vile to promote Vile Gaming and accordingly strengthen both brands? I realize that you are already doing that with VilePsy in some ways, but I am not seeing that content promoted on the Vile Gaming home page. I just think back to when there was a buzz about Spanishiwa, and the Ice Fisher build first started attracting a great deal of media attention. And I remember that when he would do interviews with Husky or Day9 that they would always refer to the Team Liquid post where he had originally posted the details of his strategy. (I understand that he may have joined Team Vile after he had already gained some of that recognition, but I know that he was a member of Team Vile when he was doing those interviews.) Now that sent a large number of casual gamers to a site which I presume is a direct competitor to Vile Gaming. Wouldn't it have been better to request Spanishiwa make a similar post on Vile Gaming, and in turn request the various personalities that were interviewing him to direct people to visit Vile Gaming instead of Team Liquid to learn more? (After all that is the organization with which he is professionally affiliated and who sponsors him in pro events... so it seems like a reasonable enough request.) Additionally, it would be great if there was more Team Vile related tips and training content on the Vile Gaming site. For example I know that Zai (who I appreciate is not a member of Team Vile, but he does have something of a following, and I do believe he is receiving coaching from several Team Vile members) is trying to learn how to play Terran better. Why not make a web series out of that process. Have Zai or whoever is training him record their sessions, post an abridged version of that on their YouTube channel, and then provide a link to where they can see the whole thing on VileGaming.com. Then have a forum section on Vile Gaming where users can ask the coach questions about their own games, and request more details about what they saw in the video. As a way of motivating the members of Team Vile to participate in this type of promotion: you could then offer in the video and on the forum post a link to where people could sign up to be coached in their own games by that same person; thereby promoting the knowledge, expertise, and skill of the members of Team Vile, the Vile Gaming community, and serving to jump start the Coaching\Mentoring program that you obviously are intending on offering. Not to mention the fact that it would serve to promote some of the Team Vile players, and it would attract attention to their own streams or YouTube Channels. I understand that I am an outsider looking in, and there may be some issues or complications that I do not see that would keep this from happening, but to me that makes sense for everyone involved. In addition to that, you could use Vile Gaming (through tournaments and other publicized recruiting campaigns) to and attract new and up and coming players to Team Vile, and hopefully sign them to the Vile brand before other teams get their hands on them. 4) On Rebirth and The Phoenix: Is there a back-story to this rebirth? If there is: where can I read more about it? If you are going to use that as a tag-line shouldn't that be prominently featured on the Team Vile page? Shouldn't there be something explaining the legacy of Team Vile, and some sort of section that details the amazing players that have been members of Vile past, present, and future. (Kind of like the Yankees have a museum as part of New Yankees Stadium.) 5) On The Website Itself: What CMS are using using for Vile Gaming? I have done a lot of work in Drupal in the past, but usually that incorporates some sort of GUI for posting external content natively, and the structure of yours includes for scripts seems to be something that you customized yourself; so it does not give any sort of indication to the system that was used to generate the page. (I will also point out that the link to the aforementioned BBCodes does not appear when you are editing a post or creating a new thread: which is why I did not know to use them in my original article. In fact, so far as I can see, the link to "View All available BBCodes" is only present when you are responding to an existing topic. I don't mean that statement to come across as me being defensive or anything. Rather, I just wanted to mention it in the event that you did not realize that, and wanted to address that in future site updates.) Regardless, I feel your pain in regards to being the only developer, and my offer to help offset some of that work load still stands. (If it is something that I end up spending a great deal of time on: I am sure we could work out some sort of mutually beneficial arrangement. I have been looking for a new host for my personal website after all, and as you seem to be in that line of work... you might have some server space to spare. Just an idea... I am not making any demands, and I would offer to help you regardless of any potential benefit for myself.) Despite my lackluster efforts so far in regards to the Vile logo, I am pretty skilled with Illustrator, Photoshop, Flash (I posted a smattering of my past work here in the event you are interested in viewing it), a number of web languages, with a decent number of content management systems (although obviously if you are using something I don't know, or your CMS is heavily customized: it will take me a while to get up to speed), and have some experience with creating and editing video content as well. (The video posted below is probably the best and most viewed example of my work in that area. A word of warning however: ignore the commentary; as it is crap). I look forward to reading your response, and once again I certainly recognize that you know a lot more about all of this than I do. However, you seem to be a pretty agreeable guy that is open to the infusion of outside ideas and suggestions: so I thought I would share my thoughts for the purposes of generating interesting discussion. |
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February 12th, 2012 12:13pm #5AlteredsEgo Regular (4) |
I noticed that someone else posted on the logo design, and I did want to mention that I have been continuing to work on my design idea, but still can't quite get it to work right. However, I did want to share my most recent adaptation with everyone in the event anyone else had any thoughts or suggestions for my work so far.  I do want to mention a few things about the above image: 1) It is not a final work, just an image showing where my current designs are headed. 2) The color palette used in the image above does not necessarily represent the palette I intend to use for the final image. (As I mentioned before I am having issues getting the shape right, and so I am keeping it relatively monotone as of right now; as that makes the individual vector elements easier to work with. That said, I had thought about staying with the current color scheme, but as this is a vector image: if anyone would prefer to see a different style it is very easy for me to generate multiple versions of the same image with a number of different color options.) 3) I don't really intend for this to be a new logo for Team Vile or Vile Gaming. (although obviously if I did come up with something that everyone liked: I would be honored to have you use it.) Rather, I see it as more of an interesting design project for me take on, and I am doing it with the intent of it being received as a piece of fan art. 4) I am basically trying to work around the existing phoenix theme with my designs. I am just trying to make it a bit more sleek and incorporate the team name into the logo itself. Thanks in advance for any thoughts or suggestions you might have, and I look forward to reading your replies. |
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February 12th, 2012 7:45pm #6AdrianZombo Regular (2) |
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I only just joined the site, but I am impressed with NKSpartan as the main site admin for taking the time to thoughtfully engage with the suggestions and critiques from AlteredsEgo. With respect to your first working logo above, AlteredsEgo, I like how you maintained the phoenix theme. In terms of the lettering itself, I like the symmetrical aspect, but I find it 'blocky' (if that makes any sense) - particularly the "V". In part 4 of your post, you mention how you're aiming for a sleek design, and it just seems to me that the two end letters are a little clunky. I'm not quite sure how to make them sleek while maintaining the symmetrical aspects, but I'm not a designer - merely a fan offering my two cents and hoping it helps somewhat. I'll be staying tuned for any final product. |
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February 12th, 2012 9:50pm #7AlteredsEgo Regular (4) |
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Thanks Adrian Zombo for the feedback. I actually dropped that design eventually due to the same issues you had with it. I did not like the angles, and could never get them to completely agree. After reworking an older design idea I finally have something that is starting to look halfway decent. I think I am blending it too much though, and I need to increase the contrast. Maybe tomorrow if I have some time I will start looking at adding some color as well as some additional detail elements. Below are 4 images of this latest design in the various stages of its progression:     As always: I welcome any feedback on this design. |
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February 13th, 2012 9:33am #8AdrianZombo Regular (2) |
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Looking at these new ones, I certainly love the overall look / where you're heading with these. I like the incorporation of the three race logos, although I prefer them atop the logo (as in samples 2, 3, and 4). I love the centerpiece "Vile", thanks in large part to its symmetry (once again), and that it looks sleeker than the green logo posted previously. A lot of the "clunkiness" I mentioned with that one is gone. I think that the logo would look good even without "Team Vile" on each wing, but it's fine. If I had to pick the two I like the best, it's the second and third one. I think it's particularly due to how the center "Vile" logo jumps off at you. Not really much criticism here necessarily, just sharing what I like as a fan. Excellent job |
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February 13th, 2012 2:44pm #9AlteredsEgo Regular (4) |
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To avoid double posting on the forums I am going to move all future logo posts to the thread that is dedicated to that topic here. http://vilegaming.com/forums.php?m=post .. &p=602588#602588 Additionally, I greatly appreciate your comments Adrain, and I definitely get what you are saying about the text popping out at you. I am definitely trying to make sure that my most recent designs retain that level of contrast. I may move the Team Vile text, but I am not sure what I am going to do with that yet. I just want to make sure that Team Vile is one the logo somewhere where it is large and easy to read. I hope you will join us at that other thread, and continue to share some of your great input on the project. |